ListenDaily - 11 March 2009; Speaking and Singing
For this reason anyone who speaks in a tongue should pray that he may interpret what he says. For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my mind is unfruitful. So what shall I do? I will pray with my spirit, but I will also pray with my mind; I will sing with my spirit, but I will also sing with my mind. If you are praising God with your spirit, how can one who finds himself among those who do not understand say "Amen" to your thanksgiving, since he does not know what you are saying? You may be giving thanks well enough, but the other man is not edified. 1 Corinthians 14:13-17 (find this or any other passages at www.Biblegateway.org)
Now this is interesting.
Many of us have understood that the Scriptures spoke of the value of having tongues interpreted so that others may understand or it holds no value for anyone else, and Paul does indicate that here: "If you are praising God with your spirit, how can one who finds himself among those who do not understand say "Amen" to your thanksgiving, since he does not know what you are saying? You may be giving thanks well enough, but the other man is not edified."
Pal also indicates that there are times when one's spirit may speak or sing, and he can interpret, other times when he cannot. Paul's remedy here, lest the time and energy be "unfruitful", is to always be praying, or singing, with one's conscious mind as well.
Even then, Paul warns, this is of no edification to the church.
But does it not give us a desire to sing with our spirits?
Jesus said, "God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in spirit and in truth." John 4:24
Hmmmmm....
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Questions:
1. I think we are getting close to ending this discussion,,,what are your thoughts? Questions?
(I will not end it without a discussion on the Greek, and a few common teachings, thus far ignored.)
2. Do you think there is connection between Jesus' 'spirit and truth' quote, and Paul's discussion of tongues?
3. Many of you have mentioned divisions caused by this issue, how did that affect your 'church life', then and now?
AN INVITATION!
Come join the First Church of Facebook (no, this isn't a joke!)
Go here: http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=63164484154
INTERESTING THOUGHTS:
"One hundred religious persons knit into a unity by careful organization do not constitute a church
any more than eleven dead men make a football team. The first requisite is life, always."
A.W. Tozer
"Has it ever occurred to you that one hundred pianos all tuned to the same fork are automatically tuned to each other?
They are of one accord by being tuned, not to each other, but to another standard to which each one must individually bow.
So one hundred worshippers meeting together, each one looking away to Christ, are in heart nearer to each other than they could possibly be were they to become unity conscious and turn their eyes away from God to strive for closer fellowship.
Social religion is perfected when private religion is purified. The body becomes stronger as its members become healthier.
The whole church of God gains when the members that compose it begin to seek a better and a higher life."
A.W. Tozer
"The men who have done the most for God in this world have been early on their knees.
He who fritters away the early morning, its opportunity and freshness,
in other pursuits than seeking God will make poor headway seeking Him the rest of the day.
If God is not first in our thoughts and efforts in the morning, He will be in the last place the remainder of the day."
Wednesday, March 11, 2009
Tuesday, March 10, 2009
ListenDaily - 10 March 2009; Lord, is that You? Or is it me?
ListenDaily - 10 March 2009; Lord, is that You? Or is it me?
1 Corinthians 14 has more references to tongues, I believe, than any other passage. Let's look at verses 1-12:
Follow the way of love and eagerly desire spiritual gifts, especially the gift of prophecy. For anyone who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God. Indeed, no one understands him; he utters mysteries with his spirit. But everyone who prophesies speaks to men for their strengthening, encouragement and comfort. He who speaks in a tongue edifies himself, but he who prophesies edifies the church. I would like every one of you to speak in tongues, but I would rather have you prophesy. He who prophesies is greater than one who speaks in tongues, unless he interprets, so that the church may be edified. Now, brothers, if I come to you and speak in tongues, what good will I be to you, unless I bring you some revelation or knowledge or prophecy or word of instruction? Even in the case of lifeless things that make sounds, such as the flute or harp, how will anyone know what tune is being played unless there is a distinction in the notes? Again, if the trumpet does not sound a clear call, who will get ready for battle? So it is with you. Unless you speak intelligible words with your tongue, how will anyone know what you are saying? You will just be speaking into the air. Undoubtedly there are all sorts of languages in the world, yet none of them is without meaning. If then I do not grasp the meaning of what someone is saying, I am a foreigner to the speaker, and he is a foreigner to me. So it is with you. Since you are eager to have spiritual gifts, try to excel in gifts that build up the church. 1 Corinthians 14:1-12 (find this or any other passages at www.Biblegateway.org)
"Follow the way of love and eagerly desire spiritual gifts, especially the gift of prophecy." So then, after starting with love of God and our neighbors, we may begin to 'desire' that the Spirit bestow His gifts upon us, and be in His will as we do.
For anyone who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God. Indeed, no one understands him; he utters mysteries with his spirit. This is a clear and distinct statement, perhaps the first one, that indicates that there is a type of tongues that is a separate language, and that it is intended to be a believer's spirit communicating with God. (Worshipping in spirit and in truth?)
He who prophesies is greater than one who speaks in tongues, unless he interprets, so that the church may be edified. Tongues are not the ultimate or greatest gift.
Now, brothers, if I come to you and speak in tongues, what good will I be to you, unless I bring you some revelation or knowledge or prophecy or word of instruction? Even in the case of lifeless things that make sounds, such as the flute or harp, how will anyone know what tune is being played unless there is a distinction in the notes? Again, if the trumpet does not sound a clear call, who will get ready for battle? So it is with you. Unless you speak intelligible words with your tongue, how will anyone know what you are saying? You will just be speaking into the air. Undoubtedly there are all sorts of languages in the world, yet none of them is without meaning. If then I do not grasp the meaning of what someone is saying, I am a foreigner to the speaker, and he is a foreigner to me. So it is with you. Since you are eager to have spiritual gifts, try to excel in gifts that build up the church. The majority of experiences I have had (and from the letters I have received, this seems to be the most common type of experience) concerning tongues, have been exactly as Paul describes here: individuals or groups, making what sounded to human ears, unintelligible noise, repetitive, and nonsensical. This does not invalidate the experiences of those people, but nothing was done that built up the church.
I also have first hand knowledge of an instant where a group encouraged a visitor to repeat a 'praise chant' over and over, faster and faster, and when the words became unintelligible the group claimed that tongues had been achieved.
Nonsense.
We must be very careful of any sort of emotional frenzy that begins with human activity. This is not to say that the Spirit cannot overcome someone, and that it will not be an emotional experience...but that starts when a person is still and open to God, then the Spirit moves. We cannot create this on our own...we can fake it on our own, and maybe even convince someone else.
This, my friends, is very, very dangerous.
Tomorrow: Interpretation
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Questions:
1. I think we are getting close to ending this discussion,,,what are your thoughts? Questions?
(I will not end it without a discussion on the Greek, and a few common teachings, thus far ignored.)
2. Have you ever been present in a situation similar to the one I described? (Many of you have related stories already.)
3. Many of you have mentioned divisions caused by this issue, how did that affect your 'church life', then and now?
AN INVITATION!
Come join the First Church of Facebook (no, this isn't a joke!)
Go here: http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=63164484154
INTERESTING THOUGHTS:
"One hundred religious persons knit into a unity by careful organization do not constitute a church
any more than eleven dead men make a football team. The first requisite is life, always."
A.W. Tozer
"Has it ever occurred to you that one hundred pianos all tuned to the same fork are automatically tuned to each other?
They are of one accord by being tuned, not to each other, but to another standard to which each one must individually bow.
So one hundred worshippers meeting together, each one looking away to Christ, are in heart nearer to each other than they could possibly be were they to become unity conscious and turn their eyes away from God to strive for closer fellowship.
Social religion is perfected when private religion is purified. The body becomes stronger as its members become healthier.
The whole church of God gains when the members that compose it begin to seek a better and a higher life."
A.W. Tozer
"The men who have done the most for God in this world have been early on their knees.
He who fritters away the early morning, its opportunity and freshness,
in other pursuits than seeking God will make poor headway seeking Him the rest of the day.
If God is not first in our thoughts and efforts in the morning, He will be in the last place the remainder of the day."
E.M. Bounds
1 Corinthians 14 has more references to tongues, I believe, than any other passage. Let's look at verses 1-12:
Follow the way of love and eagerly desire spiritual gifts, especially the gift of prophecy. For anyone who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God. Indeed, no one understands him; he utters mysteries with his spirit. But everyone who prophesies speaks to men for their strengthening, encouragement and comfort. He who speaks in a tongue edifies himself, but he who prophesies edifies the church. I would like every one of you to speak in tongues, but I would rather have you prophesy. He who prophesies is greater than one who speaks in tongues, unless he interprets, so that the church may be edified. Now, brothers, if I come to you and speak in tongues, what good will I be to you, unless I bring you some revelation or knowledge or prophecy or word of instruction? Even in the case of lifeless things that make sounds, such as the flute or harp, how will anyone know what tune is being played unless there is a distinction in the notes? Again, if the trumpet does not sound a clear call, who will get ready for battle? So it is with you. Unless you speak intelligible words with your tongue, how will anyone know what you are saying? You will just be speaking into the air. Undoubtedly there are all sorts of languages in the world, yet none of them is without meaning. If then I do not grasp the meaning of what someone is saying, I am a foreigner to the speaker, and he is a foreigner to me. So it is with you. Since you are eager to have spiritual gifts, try to excel in gifts that build up the church. 1 Corinthians 14:1-12 (find this or any other passages at www.Biblegateway.org)
"Follow the way of love and eagerly desire spiritual gifts, especially the gift of prophecy." So then, after starting with love of God and our neighbors, we may begin to 'desire' that the Spirit bestow His gifts upon us, and be in His will as we do.
For anyone who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God. Indeed, no one understands him; he utters mysteries with his spirit. This is a clear and distinct statement, perhaps the first one, that indicates that there is a type of tongues that is a separate language, and that it is intended to be a believer's spirit communicating with God. (Worshipping in spirit and in truth?)
He who prophesies is greater than one who speaks in tongues, unless he interprets, so that the church may be edified. Tongues are not the ultimate or greatest gift.
Now, brothers, if I come to you and speak in tongues, what good will I be to you, unless I bring you some revelation or knowledge or prophecy or word of instruction? Even in the case of lifeless things that make sounds, such as the flute or harp, how will anyone know what tune is being played unless there is a distinction in the notes? Again, if the trumpet does not sound a clear call, who will get ready for battle? So it is with you. Unless you speak intelligible words with your tongue, how will anyone know what you are saying? You will just be speaking into the air. Undoubtedly there are all sorts of languages in the world, yet none of them is without meaning. If then I do not grasp the meaning of what someone is saying, I am a foreigner to the speaker, and he is a foreigner to me. So it is with you. Since you are eager to have spiritual gifts, try to excel in gifts that build up the church. The majority of experiences I have had (and from the letters I have received, this seems to be the most common type of experience) concerning tongues, have been exactly as Paul describes here: individuals or groups, making what sounded to human ears, unintelligible noise, repetitive, and nonsensical. This does not invalidate the experiences of those people, but nothing was done that built up the church.
I also have first hand knowledge of an instant where a group encouraged a visitor to repeat a 'praise chant' over and over, faster and faster, and when the words became unintelligible the group claimed that tongues had been achieved.
Nonsense.
We must be very careful of any sort of emotional frenzy that begins with human activity. This is not to say that the Spirit cannot overcome someone, and that it will not be an emotional experience...but that starts when a person is still and open to God, then the Spirit moves. We cannot create this on our own...we can fake it on our own, and maybe even convince someone else.
This, my friends, is very, very dangerous.
Tomorrow: Interpretation
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Questions:
1. I think we are getting close to ending this discussion,,,what are your thoughts? Questions?
(I will not end it without a discussion on the Greek, and a few common teachings, thus far ignored.)
2. Have you ever been present in a situation similar to the one I described? (Many of you have related stories already.)
3. Many of you have mentioned divisions caused by this issue, how did that affect your 'church life', then and now?
AN INVITATION!
Come join the First Church of Facebook (no, this isn't a joke!)
Go here: http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=63164484154
INTERESTING THOUGHTS:
"One hundred religious persons knit into a unity by careful organization do not constitute a church
any more than eleven dead men make a football team. The first requisite is life, always."
A.W. Tozer
"Has it ever occurred to you that one hundred pianos all tuned to the same fork are automatically tuned to each other?
They are of one accord by being tuned, not to each other, but to another standard to which each one must individually bow.
So one hundred worshippers meeting together, each one looking away to Christ, are in heart nearer to each other than they could possibly be were they to become unity conscious and turn their eyes away from God to strive for closer fellowship.
Social religion is perfected when private religion is purified. The body becomes stronger as its members become healthier.
The whole church of God gains when the members that compose it begin to seek a better and a higher life."
A.W. Tozer
"The men who have done the most for God in this world have been early on their knees.
He who fritters away the early morning, its opportunity and freshness,
in other pursuits than seeking God will make poor headway seeking Him the rest of the day.
If God is not first in our thoughts and efforts in the morning, He will be in the last place the remainder of the day."
E.M. Bounds
Monday, March 9, 2009
ListenDaily - 09 March 2009; The most excellent way
ListenDaily - 09 March 2009; The most excellent way
And now I will show you the most excellent way. If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal...Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled...
From 1 Corinthians 12 & 13 (find this or any other passages at www.Biblegateway.org)
There are two points that I would like to focus on from this passage; remembering, of course, that this is part of a continual thought flowing through chapters 12 & 13, and remembering that there is always more to any passage than I have to say!
1 - "But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled..." There will come a day when all these gifts will no longer be needed. The debate is to whether this day has come already, or not. Some say that this day took place at the end of "New Testament times" and that all the Spiritual gifts departed with the Apostles. My feeling is that Paul is referring to the day when Christ returns, when love is perfected, and when discerning, prophesying, and special tongues are no longer needed for God will be dwelling with us.
2 - The thing that really jumps out to me about this passage is the importance of love. "If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal." The passage goes on to express similar thought about other gifts...but listen to this! If I speak in plain English (or whatever my listeners speak), with a perfect testimony or sermon, with a flawless argument, and with a PhD. hanging on my wall, but without loving God and my neighbor, my message is utterly worthless.
If I 'speak in tongues', directly to God, but without loving God and my neighbor, my message and my prayers are worthless, completely worthless.
Speaking in tongues, preaching or teaching about tongues, seeking to speak in tongues, are all secondary to Christs Great Commandments: "'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: Love your neighbor as yourself. All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."
"...the most excellent way."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Questions:
1. I think we are getting close to ending this discussion,,,what are your thoughts? Questions?
(I will not end it without a discussion on the Greek, and a few common teachings, thus far ignored.)
2. Chapter twelve and thirteen are part of the same writing...what is "the most excellent way"?
3. Many of you have mentioned divisions caused by this issue, how did that affect your 'church life', then and now?
AN INVITATION!
Come join the First Church of Facebook (no, this isn't a joke!)
Go here: http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=63164484154
INTERESTING THOUGHTS:
"One hundred religious persons knit into a unity by careful organization do not constitute a church
any more than eleven dead men make a football team. The first requisite is life, always."
A.W. Tozer
"Has it ever occurred to you that one hundred pianos all tuned to the same fork are automatically tuned to each other?
They are of one accord by being tuned, not to each other, but to another standard to which each one must individually bow.
So one hundred worshippers meeting together, each one looking away to Christ, are in heart nearer to each other than they could possibly be were they to become unity conscious and turn their eyes away from God to strive for closer fellowship.
Social religion is perfected when private religion is purified. The body becomes stronger as its members become healthier.
The whole church of God gains when the members that compose it begin to seek a better and a higher life."
A.W. Tozer
"The men who have done the most for God in this world have been early on their knees.
He who fritters away the early morning, its opportunity and freshness,
in other pursuits than seeking God will make poor headway seeking Him the rest of the day.
If God is not first in our thoughts and efforts in the morning, He will be in the last place the remainder of the day."
E.M. Bounds
And now I will show you the most excellent way. If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal...Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled...
From 1 Corinthians 12 & 13 (find this or any other passages at www.Biblegateway.org)
There are two points that I would like to focus on from this passage; remembering, of course, that this is part of a continual thought flowing through chapters 12 & 13, and remembering that there is always more to any passage than I have to say!
1 - "But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled..." There will come a day when all these gifts will no longer be needed. The debate is to whether this day has come already, or not. Some say that this day took place at the end of "New Testament times" and that all the Spiritual gifts departed with the Apostles. My feeling is that Paul is referring to the day when Christ returns, when love is perfected, and when discerning, prophesying, and special tongues are no longer needed for God will be dwelling with us.
2 - The thing that really jumps out to me about this passage is the importance of love. "If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal." The passage goes on to express similar thought about other gifts...but listen to this! If I speak in plain English (or whatever my listeners speak), with a perfect testimony or sermon, with a flawless argument, and with a PhD. hanging on my wall, but without loving God and my neighbor, my message is utterly worthless.
If I 'speak in tongues', directly to God, but without loving God and my neighbor, my message and my prayers are worthless, completely worthless.
Speaking in tongues, preaching or teaching about tongues, seeking to speak in tongues, are all secondary to Christs Great Commandments: "'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: Love your neighbor as yourself. All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."
"...the most excellent way."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Questions:
1. I think we are getting close to ending this discussion,,,what are your thoughts? Questions?
(I will not end it without a discussion on the Greek, and a few common teachings, thus far ignored.)
2. Chapter twelve and thirteen are part of the same writing...what is "the most excellent way"?
3. Many of you have mentioned divisions caused by this issue, how did that affect your 'church life', then and now?
AN INVITATION!
Come join the First Church of Facebook (no, this isn't a joke!)
Go here: http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=63164484154
INTERESTING THOUGHTS:
"One hundred religious persons knit into a unity by careful organization do not constitute a church
any more than eleven dead men make a football team. The first requisite is life, always."
A.W. Tozer
"Has it ever occurred to you that one hundred pianos all tuned to the same fork are automatically tuned to each other?
They are of one accord by being tuned, not to each other, but to another standard to which each one must individually bow.
So one hundred worshippers meeting together, each one looking away to Christ, are in heart nearer to each other than they could possibly be were they to become unity conscious and turn their eyes away from God to strive for closer fellowship.
Social religion is perfected when private religion is purified. The body becomes stronger as its members become healthier.
The whole church of God gains when the members that compose it begin to seek a better and a higher life."
A.W. Tozer
"The men who have done the most for God in this world have been early on their knees.
He who fritters away the early morning, its opportunity and freshness,
in other pursuits than seeking God will make poor headway seeking Him the rest of the day.
If God is not first in our thoughts and efforts in the morning, He will be in the last place the remainder of the day."
E.M. Bounds
Friday, March 6, 2009
ListenDaily - 06 March 2009; Say it again, Paul!
ListenDaily - 06 March 2009; Say it again, Paul!
Friends, to follow up on yesterday's discussion on the place of speaking in tongues within the body of the church, let us reflect on the next verses from this chapter.
"Now you are the body of Christ, and each one of you is a part of it. And in the church God has appointed first of all apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then workers of miracles, also those having gifts of healing, those able to help others, those with gifts of administration, and those speaking in different kinds of tongues. Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles? Do all have gifts of healing? Do all speak in tongues? Do all interpret?"
From 1 Corinthians 12 (find this or any other passages at www.Biblegateway.org)
As a writer, I hesitate to be so repetitive...but the Apostle Paul repeated important ideas as God led him, and Paul's writings have done pretty well, readership-wise.
"And in the church God has appointed..."brothers and sisters...how important this is! For the operation of the church God Himself has appointed the positions, gifts, and people to have them...! We seek His will, we seek His gifts, but they are not just randomly handed out....they are appointed.
You may have to reach a level of spiritual maturity in order to be able to receive and handle that which God has appointed for you.
"...first of all apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then workers of miracles, also those having gifts of healing, those able to help others, those with gifts of administration, and those speaking in different kinds of tongues. Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles? Do all have gifts of healing? Do all speak in tongues? Do all interpret?"
The answer to Paul's question certainly seems to be, no. How then, have some of us become so obsessed with one gift? How have we developed the theology that 'everyone' who 'truly believes' will speak in tongues?
But let us not get caught up in negative thoughts, for next time,"I will show you the most excellent way."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Questions:
1. I think we are getting close to ending this discussion,,,what are your thoughts? Questions?
(I will not end it without a discussion on the Greek, and a few common teachings, thus far ignored.)
2. Chapter twelve and thirteen are part of the same writing...what is "the most excellent way"?
3. Many of you have mentioned divisions caused by this issue, how did that affect your 'church life', then and now?
AN INVITATION!
Come join the First Church of Facebook (no, this isn't a joke!)
Go here: http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=63164484154
INTERESTING THOUGHTS:
"One hundred religious persons knit into a unity by careful organization do not constitute a church
any more than eleven dead men make a football team. The first requisite is life, always."
A.W. Tozer
"Has it ever occurred to you that one hundred pianos all tuned to the same fork are automatically tuned to each other?
They are of one accord by being tuned, not to each other, but to another standard to which each one must individually bow.
So one hundred worshippers meeting together, each one looking away to Christ, are in heart nearer to each other than they could possibly be were they to become unity conscious and turn their eyes away from God to strive for closer fellowship.
Social religion is perfected when private religion is purified. The body becomes stronger as its members become healthier.
The whole church of God gains when the members that compose it begin to seek a better and a higher life."
A.W. Tozer
"The men who have done the most for God in this world have been early on their knees.
He who fritters away the early morning, its opportunity and freshness,
in other pursuits than seeking God will make poor headway seeking Him the rest of the day.
If God is not first in our thoughts and efforts in the morning, He will be in the last place the remainder of the day."
E.M. Bounds
Friends, to follow up on yesterday's discussion on the place of speaking in tongues within the body of the church, let us reflect on the next verses from this chapter.
"Now you are the body of Christ, and each one of you is a part of it. And in the church God has appointed first of all apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then workers of miracles, also those having gifts of healing, those able to help others, those with gifts of administration, and those speaking in different kinds of tongues. Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles? Do all have gifts of healing? Do all speak in tongues? Do all interpret?"
From 1 Corinthians 12 (find this or any other passages at www.Biblegateway.org)
As a writer, I hesitate to be so repetitive...but the Apostle Paul repeated important ideas as God led him, and Paul's writings have done pretty well, readership-wise.
"And in the church God has appointed..."brothers and sisters...how important this is! For the operation of the church God Himself has appointed the positions, gifts, and people to have them...! We seek His will, we seek His gifts, but they are not just randomly handed out....they are appointed.
You may have to reach a level of spiritual maturity in order to be able to receive and handle that which God has appointed for you.
"...first of all apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then workers of miracles, also those having gifts of healing, those able to help others, those with gifts of administration, and those speaking in different kinds of tongues. Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles? Do all have gifts of healing? Do all speak in tongues? Do all interpret?"
The answer to Paul's question certainly seems to be, no. How then, have some of us become so obsessed with one gift? How have we developed the theology that 'everyone' who 'truly believes' will speak in tongues?
But let us not get caught up in negative thoughts, for next time,"I will show you the most excellent way."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Questions:
1. I think we are getting close to ending this discussion,,,what are your thoughts? Questions?
(I will not end it without a discussion on the Greek, and a few common teachings, thus far ignored.)
2. Chapter twelve and thirteen are part of the same writing...what is "the most excellent way"?
3. Many of you have mentioned divisions caused by this issue, how did that affect your 'church life', then and now?
AN INVITATION!
Come join the First Church of Facebook (no, this isn't a joke!)
Go here: http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=63164484154
INTERESTING THOUGHTS:
"One hundred religious persons knit into a unity by careful organization do not constitute a church
any more than eleven dead men make a football team. The first requisite is life, always."
A.W. Tozer
"Has it ever occurred to you that one hundred pianos all tuned to the same fork are automatically tuned to each other?
They are of one accord by being tuned, not to each other, but to another standard to which each one must individually bow.
So one hundred worshippers meeting together, each one looking away to Christ, are in heart nearer to each other than they could possibly be were they to become unity conscious and turn their eyes away from God to strive for closer fellowship.
Social religion is perfected when private religion is purified. The body becomes stronger as its members become healthier.
The whole church of God gains when the members that compose it begin to seek a better and a higher life."
A.W. Tozer
"The men who have done the most for God in this world have been early on their knees.
He who fritters away the early morning, its opportunity and freshness,
in other pursuits than seeking God will make poor headway seeking Him the rest of the day.
If God is not first in our thoughts and efforts in the morning, He will be in the last place the remainder of the day."
E.M. Bounds
Thursday, March 5, 2009
ListenDaily - 05 March 2009; Things we think and things we know
ListenDaily - 05 March 2009; Things we think and things we know
Friends, to follow up on yesterday's discussion on the place of speaking in tongues within the body of the church, let us reflect on the next verses from this chapter.
Now the body is not made up of one part but of many. If the foot should say, "Because I am not a hand, I do not belong to the body," it would not for that reason cease to be part of the body. And if the ear should say, "Because I am not an eye, I do not belong to the body," it would not for that reason cease to be part of the body. If the whole body were an eye, where would the sense of hearing be? If the whole body were an ear, where would the sense of smell be? But in fact God has arranged the parts in the body, every one of them, just as he wanted them to be. If they were all one part, where would the body be? As it is, there are many parts, but one body. The eye cannot say to the hand, "I don't need you!" And the head cannot say to the feet, "I don't need you!" On the contrary, those parts of the body that seem to be weaker are indispensable, and the parts that we think are less honorable we treat with special honor. And the parts that are unpresentable are treated with special modesty, while our presentable parts need no special treatment. But God has combined the members of the body and has given greater honor to the parts that lacked it, so that there should be no division in the body, but that its parts should have equal concern for each other. If one part suffers, every part suffers with it; if one part is honored, every part rejoices with it.
From 1 Corinthians 12 (find this or any other passages at www.Biblegateway.org)
...there should be no division in the body...
Like many of you, I am still working out the meaning and usage of speaking in tongues. I am still seeking clarity, still seeking discernment. The Scriptures are not as clear, to me at least, as I wish they were on this issue.
...there should be no division in the body...
This statement, however, is crystal clear. Certainly there have been, are, and will continue to be divisions in the church...but there should not be! If an issue, speaking in tongues or any other, is causing division, that division is from the flesh of men, or from Satan working through the flesh of men. We must maintain the truth, and be acctountable to it, but never seek to create a division over an issue, especially something that is given as a gift. I am not referring to issues of sin that some would have made acceptable in the church; although even in those, unity should be sought by preaching and teaching the truth.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Questions:
1. Do you believe in tongues?
2. Do you believe everyone should speak in tongues? No one?
3. Many of you have mentioned divisions caused by this issue, how did that affect your 'church life', then and now?
AN INVITATION!
Come join the First Church of Facebook (no, this isn't a joke!)
Go here: http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=63164484154
INTERESTING THOUGHTS:
"One hundred religious persons knit into a unity by careful organization do not constitute a church
any more than eleven dead men make a football team. The first requisite is life, always."
A.W. Tozer
"Has it ever occurred to you that one hundred pianos all tuned to the same fork are automatically tuned to each other?
They are of one accord by being tuned, not to each other, but to another standard to which each one must individually bow.
So one hundred worshippers meeting together, each one looking away to Christ, are in heart nearer to each other than they could possibly be were they to become unity conscious and turn their eyes away from God to strive for closer fellowship.
Social religion is perfected when private religion is purified. The body becomes stronger as its members become healthier.
The whole church of God gains when the members that compose it begin to seek a better and a higher life."
A.W. Tozer
"The men who have done the most for God in this world have been early on their knees.
He who fritters away the early morning, its opportunity and freshness,
in other pursuits than seeking God will make poor headway seeking Him the rest of the day.
If God is not first in our thoughts and efforts in the morning, He will be in the last place the remainder of the day."
E.M. Bounds
Friends, to follow up on yesterday's discussion on the place of speaking in tongues within the body of the church, let us reflect on the next verses from this chapter.
Now the body is not made up of one part but of many. If the foot should say, "Because I am not a hand, I do not belong to the body," it would not for that reason cease to be part of the body. And if the ear should say, "Because I am not an eye, I do not belong to the body," it would not for that reason cease to be part of the body. If the whole body were an eye, where would the sense of hearing be? If the whole body were an ear, where would the sense of smell be? But in fact God has arranged the parts in the body, every one of them, just as he wanted them to be. If they were all one part, where would the body be? As it is, there are many parts, but one body. The eye cannot say to the hand, "I don't need you!" And the head cannot say to the feet, "I don't need you!" On the contrary, those parts of the body that seem to be weaker are indispensable, and the parts that we think are less honorable we treat with special honor. And the parts that are unpresentable are treated with special modesty, while our presentable parts need no special treatment. But God has combined the members of the body and has given greater honor to the parts that lacked it, so that there should be no division in the body, but that its parts should have equal concern for each other. If one part suffers, every part suffers with it; if one part is honored, every part rejoices with it.
From 1 Corinthians 12 (find this or any other passages at www.Biblegateway.org)
...there should be no division in the body...
Like many of you, I am still working out the meaning and usage of speaking in tongues. I am still seeking clarity, still seeking discernment. The Scriptures are not as clear, to me at least, as I wish they were on this issue.
...there should be no division in the body...
This statement, however, is crystal clear. Certainly there have been, are, and will continue to be divisions in the church...but there should not be! If an issue, speaking in tongues or any other, is causing division, that division is from the flesh of men, or from Satan working through the flesh of men. We must maintain the truth, and be acctountable to it, but never seek to create a division over an issue, especially something that is given as a gift. I am not referring to issues of sin that some would have made acceptable in the church; although even in those, unity should be sought by preaching and teaching the truth.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Questions:
1. Do you believe in tongues?
2. Do you believe everyone should speak in tongues? No one?
3. Many of you have mentioned divisions caused by this issue, how did that affect your 'church life', then and now?
AN INVITATION!
Come join the First Church of Facebook (no, this isn't a joke!)
Go here: http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=63164484154
INTERESTING THOUGHTS:
"One hundred religious persons knit into a unity by careful organization do not constitute a church
any more than eleven dead men make a football team. The first requisite is life, always."
A.W. Tozer
"Has it ever occurred to you that one hundred pianos all tuned to the same fork are automatically tuned to each other?
They are of one accord by being tuned, not to each other, but to another standard to which each one must individually bow.
So one hundred worshippers meeting together, each one looking away to Christ, are in heart nearer to each other than they could possibly be were they to become unity conscious and turn their eyes away from God to strive for closer fellowship.
Social religion is perfected when private religion is purified. The body becomes stronger as its members become healthier.
The whole church of God gains when the members that compose it begin to seek a better and a higher life."
A.W. Tozer
"The men who have done the most for God in this world have been early on their knees.
He who fritters away the early morning, its opportunity and freshness,
in other pursuits than seeking God will make poor headway seeking Him the rest of the day.
If God is not first in our thoughts and efforts in the morning, He will be in the last place the remainder of the day."
E.M. Bounds
Wednesday, March 4, 2009
ListenDaily - 04 March 2009; Interdependency
Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good.
To one there is given through the Spirit the message of wisdom,
to another the message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit,
to another faith by the same Spirit,
to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit,
to another miraculous powers,
to another prophecy,
to another distinguishing between spirits,
to another speaking in different kinds of tongues,
and to still another the interpretation of tongues.
All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he gives them to each one, just as he determines.
The body is a unit, though it is made up of many parts; and though all its parts are many, they form one body.
So it is with Christ. For we were all baptized by one Spirit into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, slave or free—and we were all given the one Spirit to drink.
From 1 Corinthians 12 (find this or any other passages at www.Biblegateway.org)
Much of the discussion concerning the topic of speaking in tongues, seems to center on whether or not everyone should be able to, or if the inability to speak in tongues indicates some lack of having received the Holy Spirit.
Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good. To one there is given...to another...to another faith by the same Spirit...to another...to another...to another...to another...to another...and to still another...the body is a unit, though it is made up of many parts; and though all its parts are many, they form one body.
Friends, and I know this will be contrary to what many of you have been taught and believe, but it seems so clear that speaking in tongues is a gift that is given to part of the body. And Paul clearly states, elsewhere, the importance of understanding the different parts of the body, that we are all called to different things, with different gifts, so that much can be accomplished working together.
For all who seek His will and are open to the Holy Spirit, I say: Have you been gifted with speaking in tongues? Praise God for the Holy Spirit working in you! Have you not been so gifted? Praise God! For He has a plan and gifts specifically for you.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Questions:
1. Do you believe in tongues?
2. Do you believe everyone should speak in tongues? No one?
3. How does today's passage reflect your beliefs?
AN INVITATION!
Come join the First Church of Facebook (no, this isn't a joke!)
Go here: http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=63164484154
INTERESTING THOUGHTS:
"One hundred religious persons knit into a unity by careful organization do not constitute a church
any more than eleven dead men make a football team. The first requisite is life, always."
A.W. Tozer
"Has it ever occurred to you that one hundred pianos all tuned to the same fork are automatically tuned to each other?
They are of one accord by being tuned, not to each other, but to another standard to which each one must individually bow.
So one hundred worshippers meeting together, each one looking away to Christ, are in heart nearer to each other than they could possibly be were they to become unity conscious and turn their eyes away from God to strive for closer fellowship.
Social religion is perfected when private religion is purified. The body becomes stronger as its members become healthier.
The whole church of God gains when the members that compose it begin to seek a better and a higher life."
A.W. Tozer
"The men who have done the most for God in this world have been early on their knees.
He who fritters away the early morning, its opportunity and freshness,
in other pursuits than seeking God will make poor headway seeking Him the rest of the day.
If God is not first in our thoughts and efforts in the morning, He will be in the last place the remainder of the day."
E.M. Bounds
To one there is given through the Spirit the message of wisdom,
to another the message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit,
to another faith by the same Spirit,
to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit,
to another miraculous powers,
to another prophecy,
to another distinguishing between spirits,
to another speaking in different kinds of tongues,
and to still another the interpretation of tongues.
All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he gives them to each one, just as he determines.
The body is a unit, though it is made up of many parts; and though all its parts are many, they form one body.
So it is with Christ. For we were all baptized by one Spirit into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, slave or free—and we were all given the one Spirit to drink.
From 1 Corinthians 12 (find this or any other passages at www.Biblegateway.org)
Much of the discussion concerning the topic of speaking in tongues, seems to center on whether or not everyone should be able to, or if the inability to speak in tongues indicates some lack of having received the Holy Spirit.
Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good. To one there is given...to another...to another faith by the same Spirit...to another...to another...to another...to another...to another...and to still another...the body is a unit, though it is made up of many parts; and though all its parts are many, they form one body.
Friends, and I know this will be contrary to what many of you have been taught and believe, but it seems so clear that speaking in tongues is a gift that is given to part of the body. And Paul clearly states, elsewhere, the importance of understanding the different parts of the body, that we are all called to different things, with different gifts, so that much can be accomplished working together.
For all who seek His will and are open to the Holy Spirit, I say: Have you been gifted with speaking in tongues? Praise God for the Holy Spirit working in you! Have you not been so gifted? Praise God! For He has a plan and gifts specifically for you.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Questions:
1. Do you believe in tongues?
2. Do you believe everyone should speak in tongues? No one?
3. How does today's passage reflect your beliefs?
AN INVITATION!
Come join the First Church of Facebook (no, this isn't a joke!)
Go here: http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=63164484154
INTERESTING THOUGHTS:
"One hundred religious persons knit into a unity by careful organization do not constitute a church
any more than eleven dead men make a football team. The first requisite is life, always."
A.W. Tozer
"Has it ever occurred to you that one hundred pianos all tuned to the same fork are automatically tuned to each other?
They are of one accord by being tuned, not to each other, but to another standard to which each one must individually bow.
So one hundred worshippers meeting together, each one looking away to Christ, are in heart nearer to each other than they could possibly be were they to become unity conscious and turn their eyes away from God to strive for closer fellowship.
Social religion is perfected when private religion is purified. The body becomes stronger as its members become healthier.
The whole church of God gains when the members that compose it begin to seek a better and a higher life."
A.W. Tozer
"The men who have done the most for God in this world have been early on their knees.
He who fritters away the early morning, its opportunity and freshness,
in other pursuits than seeking God will make poor headway seeking Him the rest of the day.
If God is not first in our thoughts and efforts in the morning, He will be in the last place the remainder of the day."
E.M. Bounds
Tuesday, March 3, 2009
ListenDaily - 03 March 2009; The Common Good
ListenDaily - 03 March 2009; The Common Good
We will take a few days to look over the 1 Corinthians passages on tongues; all of the remaining New Testament references to tongues are in 1 Corinthians, chapters 12, 13, and 14.
Now about spiritual gifts, brothers, I do not want you to be ignorant. You know that when you were pagans, somehow or other you were influenced and led astray to mute idols. Therefore I tell you that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says, "Jesus be cursed," and no one can say, "Jesus is Lord," except by the Holy Spirit. There are different kinds of gifts, but the same Spirit. There are different kinds of service, but the same Lord. There are different kinds of working, but the same God works all of them in all men. Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good.
1 Corinthians 12: 1-12 (find this or any other passages at www.Biblegateway.org)
This chapter is where we started, some weeks ago, the discussion of spiritual gifts bringing us to this discussion on tongues. This phrase "Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good" is of no little importance. The church at Corinth was rife with divisions over a variety of issues and Paul sought, through this letter,to bring their focus back to Christ.
Whether it be tongues or any other subject, nothing can be settled in the church until the body of the church, settles its gaze on Christ, and opens itself to the Holy Spirit, only then can the church glorify God and work toward 'the common good''.
Those who are called into leadership of local churches are responsible for maintaining their own focus on Christ and submission to the Spirit, and leading their followers into the same.
Those who have ascended into leadership positions by means other than God's call, must repent for accepting those positions and seek His guidance out of that particular predicament.
Unity in the Body can only come from the Body's unity with Christ. Then, and only then, can the gifts of the Spirit be properly utilized for 'the common good''.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Questions:
1. No Earthly church is perfect, but do you see your church as unified?
2. What characterizes the leaders of your local church; capability or spirituality?
3. How does this affect the manifestation of the Spirit's gifts?
AN INVITATION!
Come join the First Church of Facebook (no, this isn't a joke!)
Go here: http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=63164484154
INTERESTING THOUGHTS:
"One hundred religious persons knit into a unity by careful organization do not constitute a church
any more than eleven dead men make a football team. The first requisite is life, always."
A.W. Tozer
"Has it ever occurred to you that one hundred pianos all tuned to the same fork are automatically tuned to each other?
They are of one accord by being tuned, not to each other, but to another standard to which each one must individually bow.
So one hundred worshippers meeting together, each one looking away to Christ, are in heart nearer to each other than they could possibly be were they to become unity conscious and turn their eyes away from God to strive for closer fellowship.
Social religion is perfected when private religion is purified. The body becomes stronger as its members become healthier.
The whole church of God gains when the members that compose it begin to seek a better and a higher life."
A.W. Tozer
"The men who have done the most for God in this world have been early on their knees.
He who fritters away the early morning, its opportunity and freshness,
in other pursuits than seeking God will make poor headway seeking Him the rest of the day.
If God is not first in our thoughts and efforts in the morning, He will be in the last place the remainder of the day."
E.M. Bounds
We will take a few days to look over the 1 Corinthians passages on tongues; all of the remaining New Testament references to tongues are in 1 Corinthians, chapters 12, 13, and 14.
Now about spiritual gifts, brothers, I do not want you to be ignorant. You know that when you were pagans, somehow or other you were influenced and led astray to mute idols. Therefore I tell you that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says, "Jesus be cursed," and no one can say, "Jesus is Lord," except by the Holy Spirit. There are different kinds of gifts, but the same Spirit. There are different kinds of service, but the same Lord. There are different kinds of working, but the same God works all of them in all men. Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good.
1 Corinthians 12: 1-12 (find this or any other passages at www.Biblegateway.org)
This chapter is where we started, some weeks ago, the discussion of spiritual gifts bringing us to this discussion on tongues. This phrase "Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good" is of no little importance. The church at Corinth was rife with divisions over a variety of issues and Paul sought, through this letter,to bring their focus back to Christ.
Whether it be tongues or any other subject, nothing can be settled in the church until the body of the church, settles its gaze on Christ, and opens itself to the Holy Spirit, only then can the church glorify God and work toward 'the common good''.
Those who are called into leadership of local churches are responsible for maintaining their own focus on Christ and submission to the Spirit, and leading their followers into the same.
Those who have ascended into leadership positions by means other than God's call, must repent for accepting those positions and seek His guidance out of that particular predicament.
Unity in the Body can only come from the Body's unity with Christ. Then, and only then, can the gifts of the Spirit be properly utilized for 'the common good''.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Questions:
1. No Earthly church is perfect, but do you see your church as unified?
2. What characterizes the leaders of your local church; capability or spirituality?
3. How does this affect the manifestation of the Spirit's gifts?
AN INVITATION!
Come join the First Church of Facebook (no, this isn't a joke!)
Go here: http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=63164484154
INTERESTING THOUGHTS:
"One hundred religious persons knit into a unity by careful organization do not constitute a church
any more than eleven dead men make a football team. The first requisite is life, always."
A.W. Tozer
"Has it ever occurred to you that one hundred pianos all tuned to the same fork are automatically tuned to each other?
They are of one accord by being tuned, not to each other, but to another standard to which each one must individually bow.
So one hundred worshippers meeting together, each one looking away to Christ, are in heart nearer to each other than they could possibly be were they to become unity conscious and turn their eyes away from God to strive for closer fellowship.
Social religion is perfected when private religion is purified. The body becomes stronger as its members become healthier.
The whole church of God gains when the members that compose it begin to seek a better and a higher life."
A.W. Tozer
"The men who have done the most for God in this world have been early on their knees.
He who fritters away the early morning, its opportunity and freshness,
in other pursuits than seeking God will make poor headway seeking Him the rest of the day.
If God is not first in our thoughts and efforts in the morning, He will be in the last place the remainder of the day."
E.M. Bounds
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