ListenDaily - 14 November 2008; In all thing, yes, all things

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You can look up this, or any other passage here: http://www.biblegateway.com/

And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love Him, who have been called according to his purpose. Romans 8:28

Another note: "God works together for good"..........hmmm. Maybe I need to learn more about that. Ever since I heard about the tragedy that killed both the family and the drivers of both vehicles in the collision in Harrington, I have struggled with trying to understand a seemingly senseless tragedy in which it seems thus far no one's failure caused the accident to happen. That is, neither driver appears to have been driving unsafely. So why did 6 people, who by all accounts were wonderful Christian people who were well and truly loved by many ,die? If God works together for good, does that mean that though God certainly did not cause the accident to happen nor did he wish those people to die in that way, maybe something good will come out of this terrible accident. I wonder if that is what the passage means? Priscilla

This is the main thing I have been wanting to say about this verse. We live in a fallen world. Every evil thing that has happened, is happening, or will happen, can be traced back to a poor exercise of free will by Adam and Eve. Every war, every illness, every innoncent child killed by a drunk driver, has occurred because of that initial bad choice, and bad choices made since. Don't get me wrong, people get sick, not because of their own sin* but because sin has made the world a sick place in which to live. Righteous-thinking people can be drawn into bad situations to try and stem the flow of evil. Bad things happen because we have evil desires within us, and Satan, unhindered, preys upon our every weakness. Sin is rampant on the Earth and terrible things happen every moment of every day. There is a deeper theological question of why God allows evil to continue, which is a study in itself, but I do like what Nicholi said, referencing C.S. Lewis: "We are told in scripture that with God all things are possible. But Lewis states that this does not mean that God can do anything. God cannot, for example, answer nonsensical questions. He cannot do both of two mutually exclusive things; for example, He cannot create creatures with free will and at the same time withhold free will from them."
*(There are, of course, sin-related illnesses, from drug misuse for example.)

We can come back to the question of why bad things happen, but they do happen. The question for today is; what happens next? Good parents take care of their children, and respond with kindness when something happens to their child. If you, then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give good gifts to those who ask him! (Matt. 7:11)

Children fall down and scrape their knees, they fall off their bikes, they get picked on by bullies, they make bad decisions, and good parents love them through it all, albeit sometimes tough love. They love them because they love them, and their continued nurturing through tough times, helps make good adults. Spiritually we fall down, Satan bullies us, and we make bad decisions. God loves us through it all. If we respond to His love by accepting His Son, our lives will be good. Hard maybe, but good. And by good, I mean, honoring God, advancing His Kingdom, and spending eternity with Him. It is hard to see the good in the senseless loss of lives, like in the accident Priscilla referred to, which recently rocked our local community. Maybe there was no good in it. But if the Body of Christ responds to the hurt left in the wake of the disaster, good can come because God will come. If those left behind will cry out to God, He will respond. And while circumstances can be terrible, no force exists that is greater than the love of God.

I have loved you with an everlasting love...and underneath are the everlasting arms...the Spirit helps us in our weakness...the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groans that words cannot express. And he who searches our hearts knows the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for the saints in accordance with God's will. (from Jer. 31:3, Deut. 33:27, Romans 8:26-27 More to follow...!

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Questions:

1. So, does God work all things for good?
2. How difficult is it to see eternal good through earthly eyes?
3. Any other questions or comments on this topic?

INTERESTING THOUGHT:

"I must not think it strange if God takes in youth those

whom I would have kept on earth until they were older.
God is peopling eternity, and I must not restrict Him to old men and women."
Jim Elliot

ListenDaily - 13 November 2008; Look up!

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You can look up this, or any other passage here: http://www.biblegateway.com/ And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love Him, who have been called according to his purpose. Romans 8:28
Yesterday I made the following statement:

God's will is that things would go well for us; our will leads us astray.
If we will turn back to Him, He will work things for our good.

It was perhaps irresponsible on my part to leave it at that. My intention was to continue the thought today, which I will, but I should have stated "more to follow".

I received three responses that showed concern about that statement; one worried that I was encouraging works over faith (if we will...), the second, that I was saying bad things won't happen to us if we keep turned toward God (things would go well for us...). The third I will address tomorrow. Thank you so much for sharing your thoughts!

I so appreciate thinking believers! It is dangerous to take anything written by man without filtering it through the Word. I do not disagree with the essence of the replies I received, so this is not argumentative or a debate, let me just address those thoughts.

1) Salvation is of course a free gift which we cannot earn by our own merit: For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast. (Eph. 2:8-9)

I think it is worthwhile to discuss "works" requirements after salvation, but that is for another time!

There are some things that we must do, they are actions, but not works...and I don't want to argue over semantics, you can choose another word if you like, But we must accept, we must believe, we must love God, and we must repent. I do not see these as works, but they are requirements we must fulfill...not works, not merit, and not earning...but things to be done. ...God works for the good of those who love Him....whosoever believeth in Him...unless you repent, you too will all perish...these are words directly from Scripture, from an apostle and from Christ Himself. This is not an argument, at all, for works salvation, maybe for attitude alignment?

2) As for "things going well", consider this: Set your minds on things above, not on earthly things. (Coll.3:2) Certainly, Christians are not guaranteed a life where things go well by earthly standards; Jim Elliot and his mission team were slaughtered; Dietrich Bonhoeffer was hanged, Stephen was stoned, and they beat and Crucified our Lord. When God works things for good, I believe the implication is that they are "good" from an eternal perspective. Things may or may not go well here, but that does not change the truth of this verse. And I think we are in agreement. ("We" being me and the guy who wrote the letter...I hope you too!)

More to follow...!
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Questions:
1. What do you think?
2. I'm not sure I worded it well, how would you state the "works" or "actions" I described?

OTHER'S THOUGHTS
"We are told in scripture that with God all things are possible. But Lewis states that this does not mean that God can do anything. God cannot, for example, answer nonsensical questions.He cannot do both of two mutually exclusive things; for example, He cannot create creatures with free will and at the same time withhold free will from them."Armand M. Nicholi

"Grace is the free, undeserved goodness and favor of God to mankind."Matthew Henry

"Either sin is with you, lying on your shoulders, or it is lying on Christ, the Lamb of God. Now if it is lying on your back, you are lost; but if it is resting on Christ, you are free, and you will be saved. Now choose what you want."Martin Luther

ListenDaily - 12 November 2008; 'In All Things" not just 'All Things'

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The lions may grow weak and hungry, but those who seek the LORD lack no good thing.

Come, my children, listen to me; I will teach you the fear of the LORD. Psalm 43:10-11

If you would like to look at a passage online, go to: http://www.biblegateway.com/

And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love Him,

who have been called according to his purpose. Romans 8:28

Thanks to everyone who responded with questions and comments on the topic of God's will; please continue! We will stay with this topic until we address each comment, and probably a little longer. This note is from my pal Randy:
"Good morning! This verse is frequently misquoted as "All things work for good ..." which is one of the fallacies leading to great confusion about question #2. That's my only contribution at this point ... otherwise I'd spend my whole workday typing on the subject. Randy" What a great point, and what an important one; "all things" are not good, however, to those who love Him, who have been called according to his purpose, God can make good things happen.

OK, you might ask, what is the difference? Consider those 'teachable moments' parents often use. A child runs into the street and almost gets hit; or they get picked on by a bully; or they watch TV and do not do their homework. Are any of these things (or thousands of probably better examples) they type of thing a good parent would encourage a child to do? Of course not. But a good parent will use these types of situations to move the child into a place of learning and maturation. Be careful, respond with kindness, decisions have consequences.

This is, perhaps, an oversimplification of Randy's point, and maybe we should talk more about it later. But there is a bottom line: God does not cause any evil, but He will use those moments to show us a better way.

God's will is that things would go well for us; our will leads us astray. If we will turn back to Him, He will work things for our good.

Teach me your way, O LORD; lead me in a straight path because of my oppressors. Psalm 27:11
Teach me to do your will, for you are my God; may your good Spirit lead me on level ground. Psalm 143:10
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Questions:
1. What do you think of this perspective?

2. Do you think God causes all things to happen?

3. How does He work our bad decisions into good?

THINKER'S THOUGHTS ON FREEDOM
"The happiness which God designs for His higher creatures is the happiness of being freely, voluntarily united to Him and to each other in an ecstasy of love and delight compared with which the most rapturous love between a man and a woman on this earth is mere milk and water. And for that they must be free. Of course God knew what would happen if they used their freedom the wrong way: apparently He thought it worth the risk."C.S. Lewis "We are told in scripture that with God all things are possible. But Lewis states that this does not mean that God can do anything. God cannot, for example, answer nonsensical questions.He cannot do both of two mutually exclusive things; for example, He cannot create creatures with free will and at the same time withhold free will from them."

Armand M. Nicholi

"Grace is the free, undeserved goodness and favor of God to mankind."Matthew Henry
"Free grace can go into the gutter, and bring up a jewel!"

Charles Spurgeon

"God, having placed good and evil in our power, has given us full freedom of choice; He does not keep back the unwilling, but embraces the willing."

John Chrysostom "

A Christian is a perfectly free lord of all, subject to none.

A Christian is a perfectly dutiful servant of all, subject of all, subject to all."

Martin Luther

"Either sin is with you, lying on your shoulders, or it is lying on Christ, the Lamb of God. Now if it is lying on your back, you are lost; but if it is resting on Christ, you are free, and you will be saved. Now choose what you want."Martin Luther "God created things which had free will. That means creatures which can go either wrong or right. Some people think they can imagine a creature which was free but had no possibility of going wrong; I cannot. If a thing is free to be good it is also free to be bad. And free will is what has made evil possible. Why, then, did God give them free will? Because free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having."

C.S. Lewis

"The only things we can keep are the things we freely give to God."

C.S. Lewis

ListenDaily - 11 November 2008; Freedom will?

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If you would like to look at a passage online, go to: http://www.biblegateway.com/

And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose. Romans 8:28

Thanks to everyone who responded with questions and comments on the topic of God's will; please continue! We will stay with this topic until we address each comment, and probably a little longer. This note from my dear friend Priscilla:

"Jim: When I have been in Kenya I many, many times heard people say, "No choice. God's will." It's a fatalistic attitude, don't you think, and comes from being powerless in a powerful society in which you have no say? The Kenyan government, democracy though it is, is a far cry from what we think of as Democracy. One of the things that so astonished the Kenyans about our election of Obama was how peaceful and orderly it was. My friends there, as well as others interviewed, expressed great surprise and inspiration from how orderly and peaceful the process was..........unlike Kenya's "democratic" election a year ago which erupted in violence that killed thousands, burned homes and villages, left many homeless etc. In this country we are used to believing we have a choice in what we believe and what we do, and who we vote for. Those things are the blessings of true freedom. Most "democratic" countries have no idea what that's like. We are so truly blessed. Priscilla Young"

I had never heard this put quite this way, and yet it makes so much sense. Our earthly vision so affects our ability to see beyond! Satan uses whatever he can to block and blur our view of God. Those so oppressed by their governments may never have experienced real freedom and so doubt it, even in the Heavenly realm. I wonder if those of us who have been so blessed by civil liberties may have forgotten the true author of liberty? Does the church in America, rarely under any real oppression, determine that it is America that grants the liberty? True freedom comes only from God through His Son: If the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed. John 8:36

Whether free or enslaved or some degree in between, we can be free in Christ, and; We know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose.

...in all things...in all times, in all circumstances.

The question arises then, do we who have been given so many freedoms need to 1) truly remember that freedom comes from God; 2) understand that freedom in Christ is better than, and does not rely upon, any earthly circumstance; 3) use our freedom to bring others to Christ?

From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded; and from the one who has been entrusted with much, much more will be asked. Luke 12:48

Freely you have received, freely give. Matthew 10:8
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Questions:
1. Do you think earthly oppression affects faith?
2. Do Americans have special responsibitlity to teach freedom in Christ?

3. Do you have any questions or thoughts to add to this discussion?

THINKERS' THOUGHTS ON FREEDOM

"The happiness which God designs for His higher creatures is the happiness of being freely,
voluntarily united to Him and to each other in an ecstasy of love and delight compared with which the most
rapturous love between a man and a woman on this earth is mere milk and water.
And for that they must be free.
Of course God knew what would happen if they used their freedom the wrong way:
apparently He thought it worth the risk."

C.S. Lewis

"We are told in scripture that with God all things are possible.
But Lewis states that this does not mean that God can do anything.
God cannot, for example, answer nonsensical questions.
He cannot do both of two mutually exclusive things; for example,
He cannot create creatures with free will and at the same time withhold free will from them."

Armand M. Nicholi

"Grace is the free, undeserved goodness and favor of God to mankind."

Matthew Henry

"Free grace can go into the gutter, and bring up a jewel!"

Charles Spurgeon

"God, having placed good and evil in our power, has given us full freedom of choice;
He does not keep back the unwilling, but embraces the willing."

John Chrysostom

"A Christian is a perfectly free lord of all, subject to none.
A Christian is a perfectly dutiful servant of all, subject of all, subject to all."

Martin Luther

"Either sin is with you, lying on your shoulders, or it is lying on Christ, the Lamb of God.
Now if it is lying on your back, you are lost; but if it is resting on Christ, you are free, and you will be saved.
Now choose what you want."

Martin Luther

"God created things which had free will. That means creatures which can go either wrong or right.
Some people think they can imagine a creature which was free but had no possibility of going wrong; I cannot.
If a thing is free to be good it is also free to be bad. And free will is what has made evil possible.
Why, then, did God give them free will? Because free will, though it makes evil possible,
is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having."
C.S. Lewis

"The only things we can keep are the things we freely give to God."

C.S. Lewis

Whose Will Be Done?

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If you would like to look at a passage online, go to: http://www.biblegateway.com/

And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose. Romans 8:28

What is your first response to reading Romans 8:28? I was talking to a buddy of mine last week. He said something to the effect; 'Well, whatever happens is God's will.'

I don't think so.

If that were true, why would we need to seek His will? Wouldn't it just be done? Do we believe that the evil that happens in this world is the will of God? I don't...and yet I fully believe these words are true: ...we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him...

Friends, as we begin to delve into this topic, if you have any thoughts or questions that relate to "God's will", please forward them to james.dorton@gmail.com and let me know if it is OK to use your name.

But whatever questions we have, whatever our circumstances have been and whoever caused them or allowed them to happen, we know this:

God has our ultimate good forever in His mind.
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Questions:
1. To what extent, do you think, God's will happens?
2. Why do bad things happen to good people?
3. Do you have any questions or thoughts to add to this discussion?

"God does not give us everything we want, but He does fulfill His promises,
leading us along the best and straightest paths to Himself."
Dietrich Bonhoeffer

Shine!

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AN ELECTION WEEK CHALLENGE TO BELIEVERS:

PRAY FOR THE NEWLY ELECTED OFFICIALSPRAY WITH A FRIEND WITH WHOM YOU DISAGREE.

PRAY FOR GOD'S PEOPLE TO SHOW LOVE REGARDLESS OF THE OUTCOME.

If you would like to look at a passage online, go to: http://www.biblegateway.com/

I have talked a lot this week about being gracious winners and losers, election-wise. Friends, this will bring you personal peace, which is good, but it is also for the building of God's Kingdom. Consider the following passages:

I urge, then, first of all, that requests, prayers, intercession
and thanksgiving be made for everyone, for kings
and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful
and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness.
1 Timothy2:1-2

The message here is first, that we need to pray for those in authority...period. The second part is that this act will bring us peace.

"Do not fear what they fear; do not be frightened.
But in your hearts set apart Christ as Lord.
Always be prepared to give an answer to
everyone who asks you to give the reason
for the hope that you have.
But do this with gentleness and respect.
1 Peter 3:14-15

Do not be afraid! This is one of the great messages of the Bible. Fear not! Do not let the issues that scare the world to frighten you. Then, when others ask you how you maintain your peace and joy...and they will ask you...be prepared to give an answer , because you have an answer; you have THE answer! But we must never make the mistake of beating people up with the Gospel. We are no better than the world, we just have received a gift they have not yet received; and we want them to have it. So always speak with gentleness and respect.

Be wise in the way you act toward outsiders;
make the most of every opportunity.
Let your conversation be always full of grace, seasoned with salt,
so that you may know how to answer everyone for the hope that you have.
Colossians 4:6-7

The "outsiders' here, are those outside the faith. We really want everyone to be 'insiders' don't we? And yet church folks often, especially in political discussions, are as mean-spirited and condescending as the "outsiders". There is a great song by the Newsboys called "Shine". One line says:

Shine!
Make them wonder what you got;
make them wish that they were not,
on the outside looking bored.
Shine!
Let it shine before all men let´em see good works, and then let ´em glorify the Lord
http://www.godtube.com/view_video.php?viewkey=edabf9e4b69008b0718d

So we fix our eyes not on what is seen, but on what is unseen. For what is seen is temporary, but what is unseen is eternal. (2 Cor. 4:18)

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Questions:

1. Do you see an opportunity to reach someone during this election season?

2. In your experience, do believers typically act well when discussing politics? When discussing faith?

3. If there is a difference in what we say and how we act, does it affect our effectiveness?

"The Christian does not think God will love us because we are good,
but that God will make us good because He loves us;
just as the roof of a sunhouse does not attract the sun because it is bright,
but becomes bright because the sun shines on it."
C.S.Lewis

My guy won the election(or my guy lost) so what do I do now?

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AN ELECTION WEEK CHALLENGE TO BELIEVERS:

PRAY FOR THE NEWLY ELECTED OFFICIALS

PRAY WITH A FRIEND WITH WHOM YOU DISAGREE.

PRAY FOR GOD'S PEOPLE TO SHOW LOVE REGARDLESS OF THE OUTCOME.

If you would like to look at a passage online, go to: http://www.biblegateway.com/

Colossians 3:12-17: Therefore, as God's chosen people, holy and dearly loved, clothe yourselves with compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience. Bear with each other and forgive whatever grievances you may have against one another. Forgive as the Lord forgave you. And over all these virtues put on love, which binds them all together in perfect unity. Let the peace of Christ rule in your hearts, since as members of one body you were called to peace. And be thankful. Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly as you teach and admonish one another with all wisdom, and as you sing psalms, hymns and spiritual songs with gratitude in your hearts to God. And whatever you do, whether in word or deed, do it all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father through him.

No matter how you may have voted, or if you did not vote, there is a significant portion of the population with whom you have significant differences. Since the election news is fresh, those differences are raised up everywhere you look.

There are those with whom you disagree but like very much, and there are those, well, you may not find so likable. People outside the faith may struggle with civility, manners, politeness, or whatever social pressures that cause them to behave well, in order to behave well. Others just do not behave well.

But church! We have a different, significant, specific, Kingdom calling. We are, as anyone who accepts Christ is, God's chosen!

Therefore, as God's chosen people, holy and dearly loved;

Clothe yourselves with compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience;

Bear with each other and forgive whatever grievances you may have against one another;

Forgive as the Lord forgave you;

And over all these virtues put on love, which binds them all together in perfect unity;

Let the peace of Christ rule in your hearts, since as members of one body you were called to peace;

And be thankful;

Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly...as you teach and admonish one another with all wisdom;

Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly...and as you sing psalms, hymns and spiritual songs;

Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly...with gratitude in your hearts to God;

And whatever you do, whether in word or deed, do it all in the name of the Lord Jesus;

And whatever you do, whether in word or deed, do it giving thanks to God the Father through him.

Brothers and sisters, whenever there is disagreement, whenever there is division, those of us who believe God's promises to be true have the ability, occasion, and responsibility, to show Christ to the world. It is, He is, light in that darkness.

So we fix our eyes not on what is seen, but on what is unseen. For what is seen is temporary, but what is unseen is eternal. (2 Cor. 4:18)

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Questions:

1. What role does God play in your political thinking?

2. What part does the church play in unifying people?

3. Is your church unified?

THOUGHTS ON UNITY AND WHAT WE CAN DO TOGETHER
"One hundred religious persons knit into a unity by careful organization
do not constitute a church any more than eleven dead men make a football team.
The first requisite is life, always."

A.W. Tozer

"Has it ever occurred to you that one hundred pianos all
tuned to the same fork are automatically tuned to each other?
They are of one accord by being tuned, not to each other,
but to another standard to which each one must individually bow.
So one hundred worshippers meeting together,
each one looking away to Christ,
are in heart nearer to each other than they could possibly be
were they to become unity conscious
and turn their eyes away from God to strive for closer fellowship.
Social religion is perfected when private religion is purified.
The body becomes stronger as its members become healthier.
The whole church of God gains when the members that compose it begin to seek a better and a higher life."

A.W. Tozer

"Give me one hundred preachers who fear nothing but sin and desire nothing but God,
and I care not whether they be clergymen or laymen,
they alone will shake the gates of Hell and set up the kingdom of Heaven upon Earth."

John Wesley